5 Ways to Fix ‘Heroes’
Monday, December 22nd, 2008
Hey guys, TotallyNotNick here. If you listen to Geekeasy, you’re probably aware of how strongly I disliked Volume Three of Heroes. But that doesn’t mean I won’t watch Volume Four; I’m a very forgiving geek and I’m willing to give Tim Kring’s bumbling superhero saga another chance, mostly because the show is now going to have Bryan Fuller as a staff writer. However, if I ran Heroes, here’s what I would do to revive this once mighty series.
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1. Kill 75% of the Season One Cast- This includes Claire (she’s listed first because she needs to die the most) Noah, Peter, and Molhinder. It’
s pretty well known- in fact Kring has flat out admitted to it- that the stories of these characters ended in
Season One and believe me, you can tell. It doesn’t matter how “popular” these characters are, (at this point, can anything about Heroes be considered “popular” anyway?) if they’re not improving the narrative, they need to die. Take what Lost has done for example; when a character has fulfilled his or her arc, they die. Was I sad to see these characters die? In most cases yes, but I understood why it had to happen. Peter is dead weight and he has been since he saved New York. (The first time that is) Speaking of which…
2. Let the Bad Thing Happen- One of the characters foresees a horrible future that can only be prevented by the combined forces of the chartecters. Which volume of Heroes had this story; One, Two, or Three? If you chose all of the above, you’re correct. So here’s what I’m thinking; let the S hit the F. Let the bomb hit, let the world get all “post-apocalyptic-y.” Do you realize what a ballsy move that would be? It would be right up there with the “Flash forwards” of Lost or the staff overall of House. If you think this is too radical, that’s fine. But after the “Villains” arc, radical is just what Heroes needs.
3. Fire Tim Kring- If his interviews and public statements are any indication, Kring is just clocking in at this point and I think his tenure at the Heroes University is long expired. But who can replace Kring? I dunno, how about Bryan Fuller? And if he doesn’t want it, go through the little black book of geek TV. What’s David Greenwalt up to these days?
4. Hire Better Writers- The only thing worse than watching Heroes now is listening to it. The dialogue is so stiff and awkward that it’s almost impossible to care about any of the characters or their actions. Hiring comic book writers (like Jeph Loeb) was a great idea, let’s continues the pattern. I’m talking Alan Heinberg, Dan Slott maybe even some big guns like Bendis or Robert Kirkman. They don’t even have to be comic-book scribes. How interesting would it be to have Amy Sherman Palladino write for a super hero show?
5. Find a Heading- What is the mission statement of Heroes? What is the show about? If its “ordinary people doing extraordinary things” then it’s been doing a pretty bad job keeping to that. Heroes has become a soap opera; an endless, meaningless melodrama. The writers and producers need to look deep into the show itself and discover what it is and why it needs to be on the air. Doing this is the only way for Heroes to become part of the greats. Otherwise, it might as well be another show set in a law firm or hospital.
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I agree with pretty much everything here, exept killing Peter and the post-apocalyptic things.
I agree it would be balsy but once that happens where do they go? try to fix it? because if they ever do fix it it seems like that would make the move pointless and hoaxy. I loved the future episodes but maby if they used the losts “fast foward” approch it would work better.
They need to kill most of the characters now and set the show around the group of Hiro, Ando, Parkman, Daphne, Noah, and those two comic book geeks fighting against Sylar. The show just got too big for it’s own good. This will make it small and consise with a clear goal in mind.
Why not have a whole season or “volume” set in a post-apocalyptic world? Then, if they want to “fix” the problem or “save” it, that’d be different, not pointless.
Agree with most of this, except for killing Noah. He’s just too badass to kill.
But if you kill Claire, then you have to get rid of Noah as well. Whether you kill him or not is negotiable, but if she goes and she needs to, then so does he.
And
If you go through with all the threats and set this show in a post-apocalyptic setting then you don’t have to save or fix it. That would just become the new status quo…
They should of killed peter at the end of season 1, and syler season 1 or season 2 ending latest. Also they shouldnt just forget storylines no matter how much I disliked the Irish girl :/ Claire I dont mind not killing off but she should of stayed away from the newest seasons and only made guest appearances later maybe.
First of all, Volume 3 was a much better show than Volume 2. Period. But with that said, it does have a lot of flaws.
Claire should die or become a minor character. And yes, people in general should die. The starting point should be with Mohinder, Ali Larter’s characters, and Maya. They seem afraid to kill off characters, even if they don’t intend to use them again. Are you going to use Micah again? Why keep that thread open, then? You know he isn’t just sitting around doing nothing. He was one of the “More Action!” types. We never even really got to see much with him dealing with his mom’s “death”.
When they do kill people, it’s horrible. Why kill DL, just to have him come back and die two episodes later? Why did they bring back Linderman just to have him come back and then randomly disappear again? Part of me still thinks that Elle is still alive, even though she was destroyed. Because they can’t do deaths right.
With that said, there is nothing wrong with keeping Peter and HRG around. HRG could definitely survive without Claire. The problem currently is that Claire and him go around in a circle with these stupid arguments that don’t grow the characters at all. Without her, he could have a new focus. Peter’s powers are cool enough that they deserve a continued spot on the show. Give him a cameo role much like The Haitian, and then move the focus to someone else.
But my biggest problem with the show is their inability to finish story lines. Caitlin needed to be wrapped up, one way or another. We didn’t get enough info on the Company, even though they had the whole “Prison Break” theme this season. Plus the whole Linderman is Nathan’s Obi Wan fizzled up unexpectedly. They are just really bad about finishing stories, which is a problem you never really have on Lost, even when you think you might.
Finally, some of these grand stories are just a little watered down. This volume was supposed to be about the villains that escaped from the Company. About how they were even worse than Sylar. But that’s been a joke. They are laughable at best. And besides Daphne (If she was ever really in jail, which they didn’t really make clear), all of the characters are really throwaways.
I really enjoyed this season, despite its flaws. Those that can’t still see the good in the show should just really move on. We’re never getting season 1 back, and I don’t think people are going to be satisfied at all until that happens.
BTW, I removed a Lost spoiler in the post. Knowing who dies in that show isn’t necessary for the point that was being made. Nor should we be giving major Lost spoilers in a Heroes discussion. :)
The only thing I disagree with above is killing HRG. IF you kill Claire that gives him a whole new reason to do things and there are plenty of plots that can come from the death of an adopted child. Mohinder just needs to go all fly and then die in 72 hours or whatever the life span of a housefly is.. maybe have maya accidentally kill him when he’s a fly on the wall..
@Saberj: “First of all, Volume 3 was a much better show than Volume 2. Period. ” – So were just stating opinion as fact these days. I actually ended up liking volume 3, it was the ending that did it, but to just claim that Volume 3 is better as a fact isn’t right. How can you be so defensive about Volume 3 and then just write off Volume 2.
I think its funny that you say that the show needs to not be afraid to kill its characters, but then you are lobbying to keep Peter and Noah alive. Of course there are more plot lines for Noah without Claire however, the show as it is now would not explore them. His character is so wrapped in with Claire’s that it would be difficult to separate them at this point. Do you really want to see a grieving and then vengeful Noah all season, because that’s what it would be, and so it would still be about Claire.
And as for Peter, I disagree that his powers are cool enough to just allow him to stay on the show. They may be the powers that seem they would be the coolest to have, or the best from a writers stand point. However how interesting is it to just have a character that can adapt to any situation and just have any power that he needs for a situation. “Oh wait we need to get rid of present Peter.” “Oh don’t worry about it future Peter has the power to trap people in other people’s body.” This season showed how interesting Peter was as a character without his powers.
You asked why they brought back Linderman, well isn’t that obvous? It was for shock value, which is all that this show is about. That’s why every commercial break has to have a cliffhanger, and end on a dramatic note. Its all about shock and awe, the load so much into each episode, because of fans complaining that nothing happened in Volume 1, but then once they give the fans what they wanted, the fans decided that they actually liked Volume 1. So its no ones fault but the fans, for that aspect of the show.
@Imrahil: You must not have been reading the comments the last month or so if this is the first time you feel the need to bring up the “opinion as fact” debate. When someone says something like that, I take it to be an opinion. In this case, you must be confused by the fact that I saw “Period.” As in, “that’s the end of the debate”, or something similar. However, I, nor apparently anyone else feels like precluding everything said with “In my opinion…”. Yeah, it was a very clear statement, because it was meant to be. In other words, “In my opinion…Volume 3 was a much better show than Volume 2. Period.”
I’m defensive about Volume 3, because there are far more people offensive about Volume 3. You don’t feel the need to be defensive unless there is an offense launched. Volume 2 was far too repetitive, and faced much of the same “lack of direction” problems as Volume 3. Except it also saw a lot more Mohinder, Maya, Alejandro, Nikki, etc. So yes (In my opinion…), Volume 2 was definitely weaker than season 3. However, if you listen to the Heroes call in show, I’ve made it clear that I found a lot to like with that season when the (In my opinion…) annoying characters aren’t involved. Again though, there wasn’t a strong desire to defend the show at the time, because people weren’t as vocal about the problems as they are now. People were a lot more willing to chalk up the weakness as a slump in the show. The problems have (In my opinion…) mostly been toned down a bit, but because it’s a continuation, people get increasingly vocal about things.
Why is it funny that I want them to keep HRG and Peter alive, but I want the show to not be afraid to kill people off? Just because I want them to kill off characters doesn’t mean I don’t see the value in those specific characters. When you talk about separating Noah and Claire, you are talking about the show as it is now. I’m pretty sure the point of this discussion was to discuss a better show. So, no, I don’t want to see a season long repetition of HRG wallowing in self-pity. And yeah, I believe that you are right that weak story telling would lead to that. But my point was that it COULD be done well. I’m not going to let the worst of Heroes dictate what is better for heroes.
It’s not all about the powers with Peter. He is legitimately one of the (In my opinion…) most well-rounded characters on the show. The powers, however, is something I’d like to keep around. So that’s why I specifically mentioned that part. Peter was interesting without his powers, sure. But I don’t think that it was above and beyond what they could do when he has them either.
The Linderman stuff is (In my opinion…) Bull. If they wanted him for shock value, then they would have never hinted that he was going to be in season 3 doing the premiere party for season 3. It would have just happened, or been shown in some cool promo video. Instead, it was very anti-climactic. I’m so sick of Tim Kring blaming the problems of the show on the fans and what they want. A good director will know the difference between giving the fans what the want and what they need. He has managed to pull neither off as well as he has wanted. In any case, my problem with Linderman wasn’t that he was brought back. It was the fact that once again, they left the thread hanging. They introduce yet another storyline, then just dismiss it like it was a mistake to ever bring it up.
BTW, let’s not go pointing out opinions stated as fact anymore. I’m getting a little tired already of typing “In my opinion…” every time I mention an opinion. Besides, nothing I said was any worse than, “But if you kill Claire, then you have to get rid of Noah as well. Whether you kill him or not is negotiable, but if she goes and she needs to, then so does he.” That looks mighty close to an opinion stated as a fact as well, you know.
Peter well-rounded? His personality changes every season! He’s like a blank canvas that can morph into whatever the writers need him to be in that particular story. But that’s just in my opinion ;)
And I think HRG could still have a place on the show without Claire. Jack Coleman is fine actor and when the material he’s given is good enough (”Company Man”) Noah can be a fascinating character. But if the writers can’t come up with a way for the characters to fit into the narrative, kill them. A this point, I’m not even expecting a cool, epic death. Frankly, I don’t think most of the characters of this show DESERVE and epic death. Except maybe HRG and Sylar. Everyone else could get mauled by a bear. Offscreen.
@Saberj: Yes the period at the end of any statement makes it seem much more like fact, than just merely stating your opinion. I may have stated my opinion, but I did it in a way that was open to debate, not the end of a discussion. I stated my opinion, but I did not try and say that it was the only one, just mine. I felt that putting the period you were saying it was the end of the discussion, but I wanted to make further comment. It made it seem like you were saying that your opinion was the right answer and that we should just move on to the next topic, but that’s all semantics.
I think its funny that you can call for more deaths, but then say right after that you can’t kill these other characters. I’m not saying you have to kill them right now, but you really gave no reason to keep them alive other than that you just like them. I like Noah and I would like to see him on the show, if they give him something to work with. However you are right we were discussing what the show could be, but we have to put it into the context of the show that we have, and not a fantasy. It would be realistic for Noah to be upset and vengeful if Claire were to die, but I’m just saying I don’t want to see that. So MY solution was to get rid of both of them.
Peter was not interesting at all this season. I am a believer that his story ended at the end of Volume 1, and if so he needs to be gone. He was struggling to prove he was still a hero all season, even without his powers, but in the end he just came off as a bickering younger brother. They could do better with him, yes, but if they aren’t going to then he needs to not be on the show.
What do you mean they didn’t wrap up Linderman? Um let’s see… spoiler… it was Matt’s Dad, and if you’ll recall he died. That to me would signal an end to Nathan’s visions. I just assumed that Nathan figured he was crazy, and would try to put that behind him. I mean he really hasn’t been the same since he got shot. So his mind is not as reliable anymore.
You also seem to glaze over the fact that I said that I actually ended up liking the volume. Not only that I appear to be the one defending this volume in this thread. I only had a problem with the way that you stated you opinion, but I wasn’t trying to was invalid. Oh how funny it is, this is like the opposite of our Veronica Mars season 3 discussion.
If Claire bit the dust, I would love to see Punisher HRG, but I can see why some people would find that not fun.
#6 bring back Isaac Mendez :( RIP
@TNN: Yes a Punisher HRG would be cool, but that’s not what they would do. Besides that he would go back to being a “bad” guy again, which is just continuing his character’s emotional roller coaster.
I think this is the most I’ve seen Ben post about… well anything lol
In some parallel universe Heroes is the best show on television. We got their season 2 and 3 and they have ours.
@Ben- That’s true. We’d get agnsty McAgnst Pants.
@Imrahil: I didn’t say they couldn’t kill those characters. I said, “…there is nothing wrong with keeping Peter and HRG around. ” If they kill them, they kill them. I just personally feel that those two characters have enough strength to continue on. I’d personally start with the weaker characters out there, and see where that takes us. If the universe still seems crowded after that, then we can start working on some of the more powerful characters.
I like how you said Peter was “not interesting at all this season” after saying, “This season showed how interesting Peter was as a character without his powers”. It’s pretty obvious that he does have some gas left in him. They just have to have a better angle. I think he suffers from the HRG/Claire issue of continuously falling back into cat fights with his family.
Ironically, since I’m calling for HRG to stick around, I thought that Claire may have actually evolved, had they kept HRG dead when he died the first time. Bringing back so many dead characters (HRG/DL/Nathan, and even to an extent Ali Larter’s duo of characters) makes the situation even worse. Not only are they afraid to kill characters, but they smack you in the face by pretending to kill them, only to bring them back.
I forgot about Matt’s dad’s role. I must have completely glossed over that bit. But still, I really think they could have done a lot better with that story line. As it stood, it just came across weak, overall.
In any case, I’m not arguing with you on the quality of the show, just your specific points on my post. So there was no need to comment on whether or not you liked it. Though I do have to say I’m a bit surprised that you ended up liking the season, since Scott didn’t even seem to care for the last few episodes. The similarities of the Veronica Mars conversation isn’t lost on me. ;)
BTW – “It made it seem like you were saying that your opinion was the right answer” …. It is, just so you know. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better for everyone ;)
And by “weaker” and “Stronger”, I mean personality/story wise. Not power wise.
I had a lot to say but i think i’ll keep it in. Heroes is still more entertaining than most shows on atm but you have to overlook a “few” plot holes and just take it for what it is.
One thing I disliked about season 3 is they removed a lot of mysteries to the show. Mainly what powers the old generation had. They showed them all in the first ep or 2. I would of liked some hints but not BAM here it is. Heroes needs more subtility. However blue screen/effects massive improvement over season 2 where everything looked fake….mainly the new york/russia scenes. Would like at least one epic fight a season though to put the budget into use because its def not going on the consistent plots atm.
Though surprised to see someone liking Peter. He just came across an idiot after season 1. Mainly the whole adam thing and how he opened the safe. Everyones characters changed just to suit the plot of S3 except for HRG, Parkan, Daphne and maybe Ando. Everyone else did at least one 180 turn somewhere. I know if i was syler i’d have trouble keeping up who was my enemy this episode.
If the writers killed off all the charecters with weak personalites and stories, all we’d have left is Sylar. He’s the only charecter with both a fasinating personality and an intriguing story. Everyone else is either dead boring (Claire, Peter, Nathan) or is fun to watch but has nothing going on (Hiro, Matt)
@SaberJ – “I like how you said Peter was “not interesting at all this season” after saying, “This season showed how interesting Peter was as a character without his powers”.”
I think you may have misunderstood him. “This season showed how interesting Peter was as a character without his powers” IE. Not at all.
But you’re totally right… Other than “Our Father” which I actually liked(but is the quality that this show should be at its worst), I thought this volume sucked. All of the apologists say that you should accept the show for what it is and ignore the plot holes and bad writing, but I refuse to do that. I’m too big of a fan. Heroes could be one of the best shows on television (if not THE best), but it keeps struggling I just don’t understand why. What’s the problem? Season One was so good. I don’t want the same thing, but I do want that quality. The scripts in season one were awesome. Now they’re garbage that barely deserve to be on air. It’s daytime television quality. I literally cringe while I watch it. Heroes has no business being this bad.
Now, I do prefer Vol. 2 to Vol. 3, but that’s mostly because I think that the writing was all around better last season. Now, you can argue with me until you’re blue in the face that the plotting might not have been as good as this season, but I don’t care. The writing, episode to episode, was hands down better last season. That’s not me defending the plot, which sure, was weak. But the dialogue was so much more natural and believable than it was in Vol. 3. Even if the story was better this season, I couldn’t see past the horrible scripts.
I think this volume had a lot of potential, if only the writers were better. That’s my biggest problem.
The reason I complain so much is because i think we deserve better than this. But that being said, I’ll never stop watching. And really Randy, you’re out of line telling me to. I love Heroes. That’s why I hate it right now.
Well put Scott. The minute we all stop complaining is when Heroes really is dead.
I liked this article. Kudos TNN. you voiced most of the same complaints of my roommate.
while this season only bothered me in its inconsistency and I think the problem started with the fans.
since volume one the studio has been pushing them around trying to make it the show the fans say it should be. Everyone has an opinion and the studio pressures them and what we end up with is a creative team jumping in and out of hoops off balanced trying to please people and the studio. Now the show ends up convoluted and the tone jumps out of wack lacking any stable footing. From here on the show is goiing to continue whirling around while the writers try and figure out what the fans want. I think its sad that everyone is dumping on the writers rather then the studio.
The same happened to lost in as season two wore on and into season and three, backlash starts and of course the catches like wildfire, soon the studio gets involved. On lost wasn’t until they locked down their end date and the studio stepped back that they got their footing back.
All of the complaining is doing nothing but stopping potential new viewers from watching, giving people on the fence a reason to not watch and the people without an opinion are hearing a loud one. Don’t get me wrong I love that everyone is entitled to their opinion but now the studio and the press listens….. so all of the complaining is killing the show. when fans complain this much the press jumps on it and right now the show is fighting a pretty large weight of potential viewers who may have watched the show but they read on the cover of various magazines that it sucks.
But when Lost got its game plan set up and good buzz returned, viewership came back. Maybe not Season One finale good, but good nonetheless. If Heroes were to make a Lost, late Season 3-like comeback, I don’t doubt that all the magazines and websites will make an about face and start telling people to come back to the show. I know I will.
Well, that’s the great thing about opinions. We’ve all got them.
I personally find there are a lot of strong personalities on the show. They aren’t being used to their fullest right now, but they are definitely there. And the writing this season is vastly superior to Volume 2. The weaknesses with season 2 weren’t fully from the plot. The writing shared a huge portion of the burden. And I sincerely think it was worse than it is now.
Continue watching, by all means. But constructive posts like this are what needs to happen if you do. Not the whiney little quips that everyone loves to toss in. That’s what makes me say people just need to stop watching. When that’s the best you can give.
Whoa, Nick and Randy agree on something? APOCALYPSE!!!!
We did? Must have been an accident. We’ll ensure it doesn’t happen again. :)
I just hope Claire doesnt die for good , becouse she to hot to die